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Soft Landing Podcast: Episode 3: Just Go the F%$k In w/ Luna Matatas



Do you remember your first time? Well, we finally have our first...guest to join us on the pod. On this week's episode, Just Go the F%$k In, we are joined by Luna Matatas to talk about all things sex clubs and dungeons. Luna is an international sex and pleasure educator with over 15 years of experience in sexual health and wellness. She shares her first time going to a sex club and gives us the rundown of what you, curious listeners, should consider before having your first time as well.


Luna Matatas' links


Interested in diving in deeper? Each episode, we will provide a worksheet or resource for you to add to your toolbox of self-exploration. This week, we have a Sex Club/Dungeon Checklist, which you can find here.




Have a question you'd like answered on the podcast? Just submit it here!


Be sure to also follow us on Instagram @softlandingpodcast


And learn more about our therapy, coaching, and education services here.


Soft Landing is created, hosted, and edited by Rafaella Fiallo and Eric Jones. The intro, outro, and transition music all provided by: https://freebeats.io ⁠and produced by White Hot. 


 

Episode transcription:


Eric

Hello listeners and welcome back to the Soft Landing podcast, a gentle space for self-discovery. We are your hosts...


Rafaella

Rafaella Fiallo


Eric

And Eric Jones. And this week we're delving deep into the depths of sex cubs and dungeons, getting into the sexual spelunking, if you will. So in honor of that, I would love for us to share something sex related that had us really curious in the past. So I'll start off, so I listen to podcasts all the time and I was listening to one of my regulars. And the were talking, one of their guests was recently in Europe travelling around going to all the different clubs, having all the different fun. And through this conversation, one of the host shared that there is apparently this bar in Spain where the situation with the bars, I guess it kind of recess into the ground enough that people can stand at the bar and then they have glory holes, at the bar so they can be getting blown jobs while they're getting their drinks.


Rafaella

Wow.


Eric

And that just, I don't know. I was...


Rafaella

That's a two for one special. It's happy hour all the time.


Eric

You know, and I was just like, one really clever right. Just the people thinking about the different ways to enjoy sexy time. And two, the fact that we can have this space of a bar that then is incorporating this really fun sexual component to it. Which I feel is very in alignment with our conversation today.


Rafaella

Yes, way to start it off.

Eric

Thank you. So yeah, so really excited about that, just really wanted to share that. So with that, do you want to introduce our guest for today? This is our first episode with a guest, we're really excited.


Rafaella

Yes. Very, very excited. And so in alignment with that energy and to help us with this topic of sex clubs and dungeons, we have Luna Matatas. Luna is a sex and pleasure educator with over 10 years of experience in sexual health and wellness, internationally and locally. Her playful approach to sexuality draws on the creativity, confidence and communication skills that we all need to fulfill our pleasure potentials. Luna is the creator of Peg the Patriarchy. If you haven't heard of it. Listen, there's a whole history in itself that would take a whole other podcast, but we're gonna reel it in.


Luna

Bring me back.


Rafaella

Bring you back, bring you back. Meditate, meditate, and masturbate, merch. And that is just also, to me, an ideology, a theology, a psychology.


Eric

I want that. I might have to make some purchases after today.


Rafaella

And also, Fuck Like a Goddess brand. So she is the host of Be Vibes podcast all about anal sex, the Plug podcast, she's been doing some really really affirmative, inclusive work with Marla Renee Stewart and their kinky tapas. I mean also just listen to these names that they come up with like...


Eric

Listen, just snappy. I love it.


Rafaella

Oh, so yes, that is a little bit about Luna. There's so much more to learn about her and we will add all of the links and URLs and Instagrams that you can access to learn more about Luna. But, welcome, hey.


Luna

Thank you. Thank you for that warm welcome. Thanks for having me. And I'm thinking about maybe we need a Gofundme for this glory hole bar somewhere. We get a drink, someone else gets a drink.


Rafaella

Before we get into some of the questions that our listeners have submitted to us, would you mind speaking about your own experience with sex clubs and going to dungeons and kind of going to these spaces where there's going to be nudity, maybe sexual acts happening, like how did you get into it? Do you remember? [gasp] Do you remember your first time going to a sex club or dungeon? Could you tell us about it?


Luna

Yes. Absolutely. So I was about a few months out of my divorce. I had left my marriage, a monogamous marriage, after 10 years and I kind of knew I was kinky, but I also didn't know. So my best friend had also left her marriage and we were both like maybe we're kinky, maybe we're queer, maybe we're slutty, it turns out we are all the things. And one of the first things we did was like let's go to this like sex club that we heard about. We didn't really know what was going to happen there. So we strapped ourselves into these corsets. We got in the car. We didn't know what to wear. I couldn't breathe. Like my titties were all up with the steering wheel. And then we got outside and we were watching everybody go inside and we thought, are they older than us? Are they partnered? Are they hotter than us? Are they, you know, we were comparing ourselves to everybody going in, trying to figure out like are we going to belong. And we called our mutual best friend and we said you know we've been sitting outside for like 45 min, what should we do? And he's like go the fuck inside. So there was all of our own kind of stuff coming up, but also the desire for this adventure and like a little bit of a risk. So we needed that push and we went in. We were terrified the whole time. We didn't know what to do. We didn't know any etiquette. We didn't know how to talk to people. There was an overwhelming amount of cismen, kind of roaming around just saying what's your name want to have sex, what's your name want to have sex. So it was very overt in the club that we went to. And after a while, we kind of just tapped out and really just enjoyed watching and being around people having sex, hearing live sex noises, being in these uncomfortable corsets, that we wouldn't wear anywhere else. So it was also about the experience of like this unique social environment that most people don't have access to. So we did not have sex that night.


Rafaella

But you were around it. And I really think that can tell a lot about observing our own sexuality in response to other situations, other people. Because I think we do feel so much pressure to do, to be, to show up a certain way instead of learning to kind of sit back and allow our inner voyeur to come out and kind of breathe a little bit.


Eric

Yeah, which is in itself, kinky you know?


Rafaella

Absolutely. Big voyeuristic vibes.


Eric

First off, thank you for that. I feel like there's so many points in that story that I feel like we're gonna be able to touch on in our conversation. So you already kind of encapsulated where I feel like a lot of people are thinking or feeling, even thinking about going to these places. So I want to maybe hear from you, what are some of those misconceptions that people might have?


Luna

Yeah, so a lot of people feel that when they go to these spaces that they have to look a certain way. So usually we think about conventional, commercial attractiveness. You have to be thin, you have to be young, you have to be white. And yeah, there there are definitely people who go there that look like that, but actually for a lot of sex clubs and swinger spaces people are ranging anywhere from, I'd say their mid twenty's to like their seventy's. So it's really a wide range of people that are going and sometimes people who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s actually have a different concept of the body and nudity. And so there there might be more liberation in those ages because, the jig is up, we're not twenty-two. So there's kind of this intimidation of feeling like is my body going to be desirable there, are all of these ideas around shame going to show up for me and maybe block connections. Another big misconception is that you have to have sex, that if you're going there that you have to commit to any kind of sex or play with anybody. You could definitely go and be a voyeur. You could definitely go and practice other types of sexy skills. So flirting or socializing, talking to people in a nude environment, not necessarily that maybe you're attracted to, but it's just a different place to socialize. And I think there there's this misconception that you are entitled to sex if you go to these places and you are not. People are there for connecting. Some people are there to hook up. Other people are there getting maybe their second, third try in building confidence in connecting with people. So there's many different goals and reasons why you go to these places. So figuring out your own can help you set some intentions when you go.


Eric

I love that and it makes me think of that there's almost like this hurdle to even get to being able to be ready to go, right? I think of even when you shared your story of being outside. You're there, but even then, you sort of like, oh my gosh, are they going to be into us? Are we going to be into them? Are they attractive? Are we attractive? Are they gonna be this? Are they gonna be that? And then someone, that external force being like, just go the f%$k in. Right? But like, how do we have that when we don't have that person telling us just go the f%$k in?


Luna

Yeah. I feel like anyone listening just call us and we'll tell you. But yeah, I think we don't have that external force, sometimes it is about finding it internally and allowing yourself to step close to that edge of discomfort, feeling kind of risky, but also really knowing that you have so many options. You don't like it? You can leave. No one wants to have sex with you? You can go home and masturbate. You know, there really is, kind of a reality check around how big of an experience this is going to be in terms of like a tangible risk for people. And so setting those ideas, like thinking about what you want to do, what you don't want to do and what you're willing to do. So maybe you want to have sex, but you don't want to have, oral sex, and you're willing to make out with people if there's a connection. So giving yourself a range of goals, instead of, I must be desired, I must have a connection, can also help you feel a bit more, I'm also co-creating this environment. I'm not just a prey to all these predators. I'm also giving myself the opportunity to create connections.


Rafaella

Yea. I have choice here. I think it's important to have the reminder, because when you don't know about a space, sometimes you don't know what the rules are, the expectations are, and you may feel kind of pressured in a sense to show up a certain way or like, oh, do I have to take on someone's advances or whatever the case is. So having that reminder of like no. You can, this is still a place where consent is wanted and prioritized. You don't have to say yes just because someone propositioned you. And being really clear of that too and that you can change your mind.


Eric

So with that, ya'll, let's take our first break. We'll be right back.


And welcome back, listeners. Okay, so we're talking about these things. How do we start to then begin to figure out if this is what we want to do, how do we go about making it happen? So I would love to just talk about like first and foremost right how do we find the right sex club or dungeon for us. If I'm out there trying to figure out where I'm going from my first experience, how do I even navigate that?


Luna

Yeah, that's a really good question because different sex clubs create different kinds of environments. So some might be geared really towards more couples and kind of swings action. Some sex clubs are much more queer friendly and maybe attract a different kind of values kind of crowd. And then there's dungeons. So dungeons might be spaces where people are holding parties that are kinky that you might get invited to or you might want to find. And then there's private dungeon, so you could rent a dungeon with your partner, or yourself, and go figure out the equipment and try things out. I think doing some research on their websites is helpful because they might have FAQs for first timers. But then also going into some of the communities that are formed in these places. So lots of them have things like FetLife groups or Facebook groups or spaces where they're sharing experiences or even looking for for new connections.

Some clubs even have offline things, so they might have more of a casual bars night for all their members to meet each other before committing to a club night.


Eric

Nice. I want to ask you, I don't know how many people know, but could you maybe explain what FetLife is for those who are like learning right now?


Luna

Yes, it's part like, it's basically Facebook for kinksters. And so it's not so much of a dating site, but it's where people have profiles, they post to discussion forums, sort of old school style message and threads. It's a great place to find out about events in your local area. I would take the information on there with a grain of salt because it's a lot of people sharing their personal experiences and that's great for inspiration but often it's not great for instruction. But you can definitely find a lot of spaces will have groups that might have special community. So I look for BIPOC groups on there, or I look for queer women groups to connect with. And that's a great place if you just don't have necessarily kinky friends in in your life or you're not sharing your kink with the friends in your life. It can be reassuring that there are people out there who are also doing this thing, who are also navigating at this level. And there are people who are super advanced and have been in the scene for many years and have a lot of experience to share.


Eric

I would say I really love this idea of using it as inspiration, not instruction. That piece right there, I'm like, yes. Absolutely, because a lot of people have a lot of different ideas about what they're doing, what they've experienced. And so I really love that piece of like as inspiration, but then doing your due diligence to really makes sense of is this the right fit for me.


Luna

Yeah, absolutely. I think when I first joined FetLife, I fell into that trap. I thought, oh, I guess dominance has to look this way. Submission has to look this way. And of course there's a lot of largely white cisgender bodies and a lot of very loud cisgender heterosexual white men that are leading a lot of these conversations and old guarding things. Then we've got the factions that are trying to create more inclusivity but also just kind of liberate us from only one way of doing things and a hierarchy of doing things. So I slowly grew out of let me just do what everyone is doing into my own. Oh my gosh, kink is so creative. Why wouldn't I create my own thing? Why wouldn't I listen to my own creative wisdom?


Eric

I love that, thank you. And then I think the next piece for me is like we've figured out we want to go to this sex club, ready to go. What does it look like to then decide, do I go by myself? Like you, do I take a friend? If I have a partner? How do we start to have those conversations either with ourselves or with our friends or significant others?


Luna

Yeah, yeah, if you're going by yourself and you do have a friend, I mean, great, because then you've got a bit of a buddy system. It is going to be a little bit different of an experience because when you're with your friend you're more likely to kind of stay with your friend. You might look a little bit unapproachable, just the 2 of you, and that might be good for you for your first experience, maybe just observing. If you're going with a partner, it's definitely something you want to have conversations about beforehand. So, you know, what are your expectations of going? Are you going to play with other people? Are you going to play in front of other people? Are there things that you are looking for? Would you like to have a threesome versus just maybe kind of making out with people and flirting with people. Having the conversations around will, want, and won't is is really helpful in guiding the intentions for the night. But also helping you pump the brakes on parts of your fantasy that might just not be ready for reality. Like, it may sound really sexy to just go to a club and find a couple and have sex with them. But then, maybe it's uncomfortable for you to watch your partner kiss somebody else. And so the hotness of the fantasy gets a little bit dimmed when we come into reality until we can support our confidence in it.


Rafaella

I also like the opportunity to have a conversation about what if what if this is about us? What if we're the main character? So we're going to this sex club to has sex with one another, with an audience. And kind of wanting to just have that exposure because that can be so arousing for a lot of people. People have sex in public all the time in ways that other people did not consent to. Like I am at the park, just trying to get my, trying to do my walk around the park, and someone's up against a tree having sex. Like I didn't consent to that. However, if we can go to a sex club then we are in a place where that is okay, and we can experience those tingly sensations of people watching us. Or maybe not, because they're like okay, they're having sex, move on. Just another people another group of people having sex here.


Eric

I love it and it also makes me think of even when you get there, how to have pre-planned ideas of when those moments do come up of like, Oh, actually the fantasy is not fantasy-ing anymore. So what's the plan on pumping the brakes? Do we have a safe word for when we go to the sex club together? Do we have the ability to check in with each other so that we're able to make sure that we're on the same page still, and not just continue to do something because, back to that day that we're at the sex club so we have to do what we think we should be doing here.


Luna

Yeah, those are such good offerings for people to consider because I think there's the excitement about it and I'm very much a slow to warm person in these kinds of environments. When I used to go to sex parties and sex clubs with my bestie she would get in, her clothes would be off in twenty minutes, and I'd still be standing at the door drinking whatever like an alcoholic punch was available waiting to get things going. So you might have different speeds in your couple if you're going with your partner. You might set aside a certain amount of time. So maybe we're going to spend thirty minutes just checking out the space. Let's check in with each other. Are we okay with someone going off and doing something or exploring on their own and not doing anything. Are we okay with certain configurations over others? Maybe one person wants to have a male/male/female threesome and somebody else wants an all same gender threesome. Whatever is happening in your fantasy that might have different interpretations for each other is super important to talk about. But for my own practice, I like timing. I like meeting points. And also there's a certain level of discomfort that might come up for you and does that mean you shut everything down for the couple? Maybe. And so talking about what would we're pulling the alarm bell, we're getting out of here kind of experience versus I might get a little jealous so you might see me kind of wander off because I need some time to myself, but I'll come back and I'll be okay. So also letting our partners know what it might look like if we're checking out or if we're having a moment.


Rafaella

Yeah. And great conversation I have with your friends too, like whoever you go with. Because I can imagine a lot of feelings come up. You were talking about your friend, in twenty minutes, she is ready! But what if I have some feelings about that? What if I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm not attractive or desirable? What if one friend is getting hit on all the time? I mean, there was the difference between when you go to a regular dance club and one friend is always getting drinks and being asked to dance and giving her number out and you're just sitting there like nobody's hitting on me. So I can imagine there's some of that feeling happening at a sex club when you're thinking like, OK, this is a place where, quote unquote, anything goes but ain't nothing going over here. So to be able to check in with one another. And also, even more I think with couples, if maybe it was more of one party's or partner's idea than the other. And they're just like okay I'm just kind of going because this is your fantasy. And then sometimes it can flip, right? The one who was really excited is not having a good time and the one who didn't care too much is like, oh this is amazing and you're like we're going home! So having the conversations about what this can look like but also the things that you aren't sure it's going to happen and I think that's why you do have to kind of do your research, listen to podcasts like this, to think about the things that may not come to mind because you're thinking of all the fun things or the really quote unquote, I don't know bad things that you're like, okay, worst case scenario, this may happen, but there's so much in between that could happen in a space like this.


Luna

Absolutely. And I do a check in with myself before I go every time, whether I'm going alone or if I'm going with a partner. And I have a list that's just listing everything I'm anxious or nervous about that might happen. And then all the things that I'm excited about. And the excited things help anchor me in like, okay, yes, you're jealous, but also you wanted to come here and be hot in lingerie. Great. You know, check. And it sort of helps me balance what's the stuff I'm already bringing in to this experience and what's the stuff that I'm looking to get from this experience. So it really helps me self-regulate. But, also, communicate what's happening. Whereas I used to just shut down and go cry in the bathroom because I was jealous. And feeling all those things you listed. Like nobody likes me, nobody's attracted to me. And that's often very hard to move pass if this is the first time you're allowing that stuff to the surface, it's happening in public, you've not prepped your partner or yourself for that happening. And lots of other things, like, okay, I didn't like when you did that thing. But we can talk about it tomorrow, it's not that big of a deal, you have your fun. So there's a lot of opportunities for compersion. You know, seeing your partner have a really great time. I was jealous when my friend go off and I could hear, I learned what her orgasm was, and that's how I could find her at the parties. I started to be really happy. I'd be standing there drinking my punch. I'd be like, you know what? Good for her. My bestie's that hot girl over there doing that thing. And then I'd find my own group. If I sat there and kind of went stank into all these narratives that exist whether I'm at the sex party or not, then really that's something that's really stealing from my experience in that moment. Sometimes you can't control it, but through practice, for me, it's definitely helped to have tools.


Rafaella

Yeah, and if you're feeling and looking stank, then people are probably, hopefully, reading body language. Like okay, they don't want to be bothered. So then that kind of affirms that narrative like, see, no one's approaching me. Well, you're not too approachable right now for a variety of reasons.


Eric

I think all this too, for me, it kind of goes into the center of like safety planning before you go to. So I feel like we definitely hit on the communication pieces, check-in pieces but also want to talk about safer sex practices, STIs things like that, too. Because I think that is also something, as a part of the conversation of, how do we think about these things before we go into spaces with other people?


Luna

Yeah, absolutely. Most clubs are really well equipped with condoms and lube. But if you need anything beyond that, if you like a specific brand of barriers, or if you like dental dams or gloves, those are things I would suggest you pack your own bag. And you can definitely have conversations with people that you meet and figure out you know what's comfortable in terms of barriers or testing. But my rule is that I figure out what barriers I'm comfortable with and then I go into an environment having known my last testing date. Because oftentimes you're meeting people really quickly, you're meeting people in an environment where people are trying to connect. So there's a risk of people lying. There's also a risk of people just being not informed. And so thinking that some of the activities they do are actually not risky activities for sexually transmitted infections. So figuring out with your partner, okay, like are we having oral barrier free with people? Are we returning oral barrier-free with people? Like what what kinds of things would make us feel comfortable? And if boundaries change, you discuss that the next time. Like we don't change boundaries in the middle of what we've already agreed because emotions are high, vulnerability is up, arousal is up, and so we're not really making decisions from the same place that we consented to beforehand.


Eric

And I think, in the moment it can be so difficult to renegotiate things and so I love the idea of also being like, this can be a further conversation later. It doesn't have to necessarily be something that we deal with right then. But making note of it so that that's something that if and when we do choose to do this again, how can we make sure we're treating it as an iterative process for us to just continue to improve on the experience.


Luna

Yeah, absolutely. I used to get into situations with an ex of mine, where we'd be at sex clubs and he'd be wanting to have bareback sex with people. And then I was feeling like, well, I don't want to be the buzzkill. I mean, we'll worry about it later, but it felt like such a violation looking back on it. Like we had already agreed up to things and for those of us who find it hard to speak up about our boundaries in the moment, maybe we need more digesting time, that that really puts us at a risky spot to have to reassert in that moment. So agreeing beforehand, like these boundaries can change later, but for tonight this is what our container is. This is what we're guiding the experience with.


Rafaella

Yeah, that hits on so much because, when it comes to safer sex practices and barriers, people do change their mind without communicating it with the person that they're engaging with. I'm thinking of like stealth behavior and stuff like that. And there can be a lot of manipulation and gaslighting. So I really love this reminder to say hey we agreed that this is how we're going to protect ourselves and try to stay as safe as possible. If you change your mind, cool. We'll talk about it for next time, but that is not okay for you to just say away with the condoms because you think this person's really hot and your arousal was at 1,000.


Eric

So as I was getting prepared for this, I came across this idea from, I think her name's Effie Blue at a place called Hacienda Villa in New York. And it's this thing called BIDs, so boundaries, intentions, and desires. I don't know if you've heard of that framework before but I thought it was really interesting because boundaries, of course, as we're talking about what are our no-go's. But the intentions are what do I want to get out of this experience? How do I want to feel? And then the desires are, what do I want to see happen when we're there? And so I would love to maybe talk about what does that process look like for you, as well for people to be thinking about outside of all this stuff too, like, how do I prepare myself mentally of what am I not okay with and what I am okay with?


Luna

Yeah, I find people are in two different camps. So some people are like, let's just experience everything and then I'm going to know what I like from that experience. And then other people start with a more stricter menu. So here's the three things that I'm open to tonight, but I'm not open to a whole bunch of other things. So sometimes that's a bit of a personality and an approach kind of thing. Sometimes that's about what's suited best for the partnership or the friend that you're going with. And I think the emotional part of it is so important to consider as well. Whether you're doing sexy club kinds of things or kinky kinds of things, because this is such a heightened arousal environment. It's a fun environment. There's lots of adrenaline going. There's dopamine going. We might get into ideas and desires that we're not necessarily emotionally prepared to take into reality. And for some of us, I mean, I've definitely been in that space where I was like, I wasn't gonna do this thing tonight and then I ended up doing the thing and was not prepared. Had an amazing time. And then there was other times where I was like, oh my god, it felt almost high being in that environment and doing things because it was available or because it just felt so erotically charged. So knowing that you can take care of yourself if you make these kinds of emotional mistakes, but preparing yourself with what are some of your insecurities? Do you have body insecurities? Do you have shame around particular sexual activities? Is there a chance that something might come up from your past? I'd started to have, the longer that I went to sex clubs, the more that I had experiences also that weren't great. And so I started to anticipate potential trauma happening at certain clubs, which was very different than my, let me do all the things, naive kind of experience. So, noticing if there might be particular triggers that would be present for you. I just came back from Hedonism, Jamaica, which is an adult lifestyle resort. And I was there with a swingers hotel takeover. And so I knew one of my triggers might be that this was a fitness group and I was like, yo, I'm going to be triggered at some point around my body shame. And so having that knowledge kind of prepared me for when it started to creep up. And I think that in some ways it actually dulled that kind of burn that usually comes up in that environment because I also had all these ideas of what I was desiring out of this. I was desiring connection. It was a professional experience. It was a way to experience a different community as well. Anyways, the emotional kinds of check-ins I think are helpful before, during, and after. So I love the idea of BIDs. I tend to use Will/Want/Won't, so it includes desires, openness, and also barriers. And I used to meet a lot of couples at sex clubs that would have really strong barriers. We could have sex but you can't kiss my partner. And so I also learned to figure out what worked for me, and so for me that kind of experience is not desirable. And I used to be more open to it just because I didn't know I could say, oh, I don't want that kind of threesome. I want a different kind. So even fleshing out your fantasies with your partner, like what do they look like? What's the energy behind it? What's the intention and flavor that you want to bring?


Eric

I love that and I think what I love about all we just said too, is that that's for the first timer and the seasoned person. Every single time is going to create different experiences and so how can we mindful of it each and every time we go, so that we are then thinking, how do we have the best time possible?


Luna

How do we have the most joy? How do we set ourselves up for joy.


Eric

And with that, why don't we take another break, ya'll. Ok, see you in a sec.


Welcome back, ya'll. Now, let's jump into it. Okay, so with that, I felt like we've like talked so much now like getting to the club. So I think up to now, we're like how do we even get to the place where we're ready to go? I would love to talk about what are some of the common rules and etiquettes that you you have seen during your time? Because earlier you mentioned like different types, different spaces, but what are some common things that you can really share for people to understand?


Luna

Yeah, generally consent is really huge. And really obvious verbal consent is preferred in these environments. So most places have an Ask Once policy. If you've asked someone if they want to play and they say no, or not now, or maybe later, you don't ask again. Many places have specific designated areas, so where maybe single males aren't allowed to go or only couples are allowed to go, to kind of encourage people to connect in different ways. And there's also, some places will say you have to be either completely nude or you have to be in lingerie. It really just depends on the environment, and I think comparing it to things like bathhouses, which are frequented by gay men, the environment is a little different. There's different cultural rules and different social norms that happen in spaces. I know whenever I teach you queer men audiences, they're like this is way too much conversation, you know like we're not checking in about all these things. It's not happening, we're not talking about Will/Want/Won't, we're like "where".


Eric

Like, oh, you looked at me for two seconds longer than usual, okay let's go.


Luna

So there might be things that you might have to figure out socially, but usually the club websites will say explicitly what the rules are. One other rule around engaging in sort of public play, is that you respect people's distance. So even if you're a voyeur, you standing super close to the action is really going to change the scene. So, maybe stand like an arms length away. If you're in the splash zone, you're too close.


Eric

We can feel your presence.


Luna

And that you can ask to join. You can not just jump just because there's a bunch of people.


Rafaella

You know, going back to what you mentioned about having workshops with gay men and how they're like, this is the culture. I'm really curious about culture in general, we have this air of, this is how it's always done, don't question it. When in fact a lot of people want to question it, they're not happy, satisfied, they want to make some changes but they feel like they can't because, this is the culture. So I'm really curious about that, where it's like how many people would love to be like I would love a Will/Want/Won't list, or bid, or whatever the case is. But they feel like they can't because people will look at them like we don't do that here, what are you doing? So did you ever have that piece come up? Or was it just kind of like, OK, well, on to the next slide?


Luna

Oh, I think that there's such a growing vocal community amongst queer men that is advocating for just more options of how to hook up. So either more time doing certain activities that maybe aren't so centered on having penetration and doing other types of outercourse, other types of sensual activity, or kink without sex is definitely something that lots of people enjoy. So I think that there is this redefinition. Once we let go of these traditional ideas of masculinity, femininity, and really just putting everything into an either/or box, we have to either be super down or we have to be super communicative. I think in environments where there's more cisgender heterosexual people, there still exists a very strong patriarchal power and you can see that in many swingers environments where there is a sense of like, women are objectified. So they're the ones who are like decorated, they've got all the cute outfits and dude shows up with like a golf shirt. There's not this like just try a little.


Eric

Oh, not a golf shirt. That's disappointing.


Rafaella

Or Hawaiian, easier access, you can just pop it open.


Luna

Okay, if you're going do a performance with it, yes. If you're just going to stand there, then no. So I think even just getting into that fun part of it, really just gearing yourself up for the kind of social and sexual vibe that you want.


Eric

I love that and I appreciate that question too because I was affirming that's definitely the experience. I also don't necessarily agree with that either. I definitely think that even with like gay bars can very quickly become sexual spaces. And so it's just a very different experience. I've been at clubs before where people are groping me and I'm like you didn't say a word to me. Hello? And so like I think there's definitely bigger conversations of what could be different about some of those, particularly queer male spaces for sure.


Rafaella

Yes, I think also being in a Black or Brown body just brings up so much other thoughts and anxieties. I know there have been places where I'm like, I don't really want to deal with feeling like I'm being fetishized. Or telling me I'm blank because I'm blank. And so it can be a real turn off and trying to hold space for an open mind and setting your boundaries. To also being realistic and asking around and saying like what is this space like, is it a safe space for people who look like me in this body with this complexion, and this background, or do I just need to find somewhere else? And places like FetLife or Facebook groups is a great way to find out having to always choose learning through experience. I guess I just got to go to find out. You can still take their experience with a grain of salt, but at least you have a little bit more information to work from.


Eric

Yeah, I love that and I would love to hear more about your thoughts and experience around that too. Because you said at the beginning, this assumption that these spaces are particularly really white, right?


Rafaella

White, and able-bodied.


Luna

Yeah, they are generally. I live in a really diverse city, I live in Toronto, and still many of our kink spaces are super white and super like male/men kind of dominated. Even though there's lots of feminine dominance types in the city. For a long time, for me, I went to these spaces anyways because there weren't any BIPOC spaces that I was aware of. I think there's more now, especially for young people. And yeah, there were experiences where there were so many microaggressions, I just couldn't count them. But I also didn't know what my kink was and so I was allowing kind of the community to like tell me what it was because it was affirming. It was affirming to be a submissive femme and I'm much more of a switch and my dominant side tends to be the side that I use in public and I didn't discover that because I didn't see any representations of fat, femme, you know, BIPOC doms. There was just these like either older white male with a beer, daddy kind of dom. So it did mean for many years I was trying to fit into boxes that didn't make me thrive. But I did meet people and those people were, ones that helped me evolve in different ways. So either through one-on-one play, which I felt safer, many a times to actually experiment. I think when you're in super white environments, like learning rope, for example, is really intimidating because you feel there's this extra pressure to be perfect because you're the only BIPOC person in the room. So that was a big challenge. If you can get together your friends even, if they're like not kinky, but they just want to do something different. They just want to be an adventurer or voyeur. Going with your own crew or your own group is so much more supportive because the reality is that a lot of the large-scale events, a lot of the large-scale businesses for this are white and white-owned. So it depends, if that environment is a complete no-go for you, then definitely doing more private play. If you're open to that and you can bring your friends amazing, because you can take up some space. For a long time I just didn't go to spaces after I had been in so many white spaces. I was like I'm not doing public kink anymore. I'm not going to sex clubs and going back to hedonism where this group was probably 90, 95% white was really interesting. Because I was ready to be I was like these are not my people, but I had such a great time. It was like connecting in a different way. And it just reminded me there's a multiverse. There's a multiverse of kinksters and sex positivities. And while this is not my community, this is definitely something that grew my edges in many ways. It really like took me out of my groove and helped me carve some new ways into kink and learning, and also gifting learning to people.


Eric

I love that term, multiverse of kinks. I just want to say that right now, as a comic book nerd and movie nerd, that really just satisfied me. So thank you for that.


Rafaella

Something else is coming up around accessibility. We're talking about a dungeon first of all. I'm thinking of my own experiences and just imagery of it being hard to get to. Like literally, a lot of stairs. And we're talking about folks who are maybe disabled or have other access limitations or barriers, and how they will not be able to access these spaces. So sometimes it's like once you get to the space, yeah we're talking about how safe I feel, how welcoming I feel, how free and liberated do I feel. But then can I even get to the space. And in addition to that, as you mentioned earlier, these are companies and businesses. So who can afford to literally access the space because of their financial situation. So, I think that's really important to mention as well.


Luna

Yeah, absolutely. Many of them are not accessible, physical accessibility. And some of them are doing really great things around it. There's a dungeon in Portland, Sub Rosa, that is doing incredible stuff around diversity, equity and inclusion, and accessibility of their space.


Eric

All right, so we've talked about how do we get to the place where we're ready to go? We talked about once we were there. Would love to keep in mind what happens after we go home? What does after care look like in supporting each other or for yourself or for your partner? What happens there?


Luna

Yeah, I think after care is such a great conversation to bring up because we go into this a floaty, excited kind of head space. There's a lot of stimulation and then when we're pulled out of it we're going back to our real world, our boring clothes, our regular lives. And sometimes there's an integration piece that needs to happen for people, or come down piece. So after care can happen right after. It can be something that if you're with a partner, maybe you do something to connect with each other, like shower together or share a meal, talk about your favorite parts, have sex to your favorite parts. If you are solo, I used to always come home and take a bath, like no matter what time. I'd come home at three in the morning, I'd still draw a 15-20 min bath. And for me it was kind of cleaning other people's energy off of me. And so I could kind of go back with just me to my bed. Some people also really like to talk about maybe what went wrong or like what we could do better. I would save that conversation for at least the next day because people can still kind of be in this vulnerable space for a few days and they might need some time to come down from it. Other forms of aftercare could just include something that's lowkey and relaxing, like cuddling and watching some episodes of your favorite show. If you don't have someone to do that with, or your partner kind of needs to go to bed and you need something different, then make sure you have a list of things that are comforting and soothing for you. So I would usually probably smoke a joint, be in the bath, and then I would do like a rub love for myself, like just rubbing my skin with oil and then going to bed.


Rafaella

Wait, oh, we didn't talk about drugs and substance use at parties. We talked about the bar situation at the beginning. I think that's really important too.


Luna

Yeah, most, I'd say almost 90% of kink spaces are sober spaces. And so there's no alcohol on premises, they discourage using any other types of drugs. We're seeing some cannabis kink spaces or cannabis friendly kink spaces coming up a little bit more. In terms of sex clubs, most of them do sell alcohol. If it's a private sex party, they may have a private bar or BYOB kind of situation. Most discourage any kind of drunken behavior. So if you look like you've had too much, you'll be cut off and probably asked to leave.


Rafaella

It's like the airlines, you can't get on this flight if you're too intoxicated.


Luna

Yeah, take your genitals and leave, you got to go. We don't want this kind of behavior here. And if you think about it, it makes sense. I mean, lots of people want this for liquid courage, to kind of feel uninhibited. Understandable. But the challenge is that we want to be of clear mind when we're communicating around consent and other people's pleasure. I mean, you're meeting strangers. It might not be the same kind of social or arousal response that your partner has. So you need to be a little bit more in tune. And no one wants to go to a club and hang out with a sloppy person. Like it's not a good look.


Rafaella

I never really did, it doesn't matter what type of club it is. It's not my fav environment.


Eric

I don't want to be that person.


Rafaella

Okay, glad that we also touched on that because I think it's really important. Especially mentioning the courage aspect and wanting to feel a little bit more limber and just open but you know you can have to do some meditation or some mirror magic, affirmations, or something to get you ready. Because it's a sober space, so that's really good to remind people of.


Luna

Dance, get on that dance floor. What a great way to limber up to flirt.


Eric

That's an important piece because it goes back to the consent piece. How do I, if you're messed up, how do I effectively then engage with you? I can't.


Rafaella

And also, when we're talking about what happens when we go home. I mean, sex club or dance club. There are times, especially when alcohol or something's involved. I know there are times I get home like, why did you? Why did you do that? So, really being able to think about how we hold ourselves accountable when we are or are not using substances.


Eric

Wow, this has been such a rich conversation. So now, let's take our final break and we'll come back to wrap things up.


Hey there, listeners, and we're back. Now, as we draw to a close, do you have any like final thoughts for us, Luna?


Luna

Yeah, I think if you're listening to this and you think, oh, that might not be for me or oh my gosh how can people go there. There's there's so much around sex and eroticism that we've learned that is very much just replicating mainstream porn. And so realizing that you have more possibilities than what you've seen in porn and thinking about how this might expand your erotic adventure. Maybe it just gives you a great story. Maybe you meet some fun people that you connect with in other ways. I feel that going to these spaces, I've just met really open-minded, adventurous people. And the couples that I met in these spaces are investing in their relationships like they are going there to expand their experiences together. So it is a really unique experience. And if you even just want to feel better about your body, being around live sex and hearing live sex noises is so different than porn. And so it really brings us back to sex is such a sensory experience, and these bodies that we have are human, and there's so many pleasure possibilities if we get out of this image. And that we just need an aesthetic for sex. Yeah, so just put on your lingerie and go.


Eric

If nothing else, I love that you said you can get a good story out of it. I often say do it for the memoir. You know?


Rafaella

Do it for the blog. I went to a sex club, here's what happened. 7 things I learned from the Portugal sex club.


Eric

I love it. And even the pleasure possibilities. I think that's the main thing for me, right? It's like how do we live in this state of possibility in terms of pleasure.


Rafaella

And also just kind of pushing ourselves to create new comfort zones right and knowing that just being in the environment can do so much for us in an affirming way and it does not have to look like us trying all the sexual things with all the random people. It could just be in the place and being open and watching and listening and sensing.


Eric

Full body fuck. Well, thank you again, Luna. It's really been a pleasure. So for this, also, Luna, what we are working to do with this podcast too is give people resources to take with them to do as a part of the podcast. I think that's the big thing for us is how do you make this something more than just this passive listening experience. But something for people to really interact with. And so I love that you mentioned, at the beginning of this checklist that you go through, because that's what we to develop too. This checklist of things to keep in mind for yourself, so you feel as ready as possible to have the joy that you want to in these experiences. So for folks listening, you can can find that on our website, to take that time to figure out for yourself what is it that you want out of this experience and how to best prepare yourself to have it. With that, Luna, would you like to tell people where to find you?


Luna

Oh yeah, sure. You can find me at lunamatatas.com. It's like Hakuna Matatas, but Luna Matatas. I have about 35 webinars on demand right now. One of them is all about sex clubs, so it does have a lot of the tools, in more depth than we talked about. And there's about fifteen kinky webinars. So if you're interested in getting some skills before you go to the club, you can watch those any time on demand.


Eric

I love that, for that multiverse of kinksters. Well, thank you again, Luna. It really has been such a pleasure. And listeners, thank you again for listening today. Next week, really excited, we'll be talking about exploring sex and disability. So we'll continue this conversation of what does it mean to have accessibility when we talk about sex or sexuality?


Eric

Bye


Rafaella

Bye


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